Could we have a roadmap update please?

moopf · January 2013

I don't think I'm alone in being a little confused about what we're expecting next and when, as the Roadmap posted in September appears to bear no relation to what's actually being developed going by @atilim's comments. I'm looking to release an app (for both iOS and Android) middle/end of Feb and there are a few things that I would like to be released before then.

1. Encrypted lua files which was on the original 'Next release' section of the roadmap.

2. License checking for Google Play apps. I think this is vitally important due to the huge distribution of apks (take a look at @SinisterSoft's recent thread - he's finding 2500 distributions without payment for every 1 sale!) Whilst this wasn't on the original roadmap, I do wonder if it's actually worth distributing a paid app on Google Play without this. Failing inclusion I may have to look at a plugin for it, although not being a Java developer I may have to put my hands in my pocket to get it developed.

3. Font rendering. At present, as the TextField class doesn't tell us where the baseline is on a text field, it's impossible to accurately align. This needs to be resolved quickly in my opinion. It makes rendering text messy.

So, are any of those likely before my release date? And, outside of that, what is the current best-guess roadmap? I don't want this thread to be taken in any way as demanding - I'm just asking the questions so I know what to expect.

OZApps · January 2013

Definitely #1. +∞ and #3.

twisttap · January 2013

Btw anyone saw @atilim lately ? Any post of him in the forums

SinisterSoft · January 2013

1 & 2 for me are important. Plus render to texture would be good.

Re the piracy...

I think the way forward with Android is free with ads, the first few levels of a game. Then pay to get any further. Who cares if they pirate it then, they would have to hack it too.

moopf · January 2013

1 & 2 for me are important. Plus render to texture would be good.

Re the piracy...

I think the way forward with Android is free with ads, the first few levels of a game. Then pay to get any further. Who cares if they pirate it then, they would have to hack it too.

This wouldn't work for all games. Shoe-horning in IAP to unlock doesn't work for everything. I generally don't get too hung up about piracy, but I was shocked by the figures you released. That's a whole different level!

techdojo · January 2013

I've been playing with my new toy a Nokia Lumia 800 running Windows Phone 7.5 and one thing I've noticed is that in the games market place, is that all the games are offered on a trial basis first, you can then pay from inside the game to unlock the full game. I don't know if this is a MS requirement for XBox live games on the platform, but it seems like a BGI (bloody good idea (tm)) to me!

moopf · January 2013

It's only a good idea where it's a natural fit for a game and only then if we get good encryption on the Lua files, otherwise it would be pretty easy for people to just alter any config file you're storing in the documents folder to give them the full game. Not all games fit this model, and it's also something you have to be incredibly careful with on iOS as Apple don't like 'trials' so you have to ensure you're offering enough to constitute a full experience.

GregBUG · January 2013

It's a shame not to have any official response from the developers ...

moopf · January 2013

It's a shame not to have any official response from the developers ...

I only posted it yesterday so give them time. Don't think @atilim has been around on the forums for a few days.

OZApps · January 2013

I guess it could be due to the fact that it is time for a new update. I guess there could be a response after the release of the new update. Is that correct @Atilim ?

GregBUG · January 2013

@moof and @OZApps

I hope you're right ...

atilim · January 2013

#1 Still it's planned for next release and I haven't started implementing the next release yet.
#2 Currently I don't know.
#3 Let's talk this issue on its own thread.

@OZApps - yes you were right. I was preparing the new version

And I currently I try to but cannot catch our roadmap predictions. For example. APK expansion files feature wasn't on the plan a week ago. Anyway, I want to start implementing new version soon.

moopf · January 2013

So what is the likelihood of #1 coming before my release date? That was my question.

atilim · January 2013

If your release date is about middle/end of Feb, then I can say most most probably.

moopf · January 2013

OK thanks @atilim, that's great.

keszegh · January 2013

If your release date is about middle/end of Feb, then I can say most most probably.

can you say something similar (or anything) about when can we expect rendertotexture? thanks

gmarinov · January 2013

then there's the dire sound api.....

keszegh · January 2013

If your release date is about middle/end of Feb, then I can say most most probably.
can you say something similar (or anything) about when can we expect rendertotexture? thanks

dear @atilim, i try to be patient but i can't resist to ask this question again in case you did not notice it first time. it would make me feel better to know anything about the schedule of this feature, rendertotexture.
thanks

ar2rsawseen · January 2013

@keszegh on the other thread there was a discussion about this:
http://www.giderosmobile.com/forum/discussion/comment/18016#Comment_18016

Basically:

In a couple of weeks, I'll start moving from OpenGL ES 1.1 to OpenGL ES 2.0. And while moving, I'll also implement render to texture.
...
I'll start implementing in a couple of weeks but implementation will take longer.

moopf · January 2013

@ar2rsawseen - Without you, how are people to know? These comments from @atilim get put out on random threads here, there and everywhere (I mean, that's on a thread about alpha blending) and it's impossible to keep track of what's currently on the radar. It needs to be centralised. Yeah, a roadmap. One that's kept up to date. I don't care if the roadmap has to change over time as needs and priorities change, but that change needs to be communicated in one simple place. And, whilst it would be good to have timescales, even if there aren't any at least it stops the constant guessing as to what's actually being worked on.

Nascode · January 2013

@moopf i think i agree with you

actually @gorkem usually add things on wiki here http://www.giderosmobile.com/DevCenter/index.php/Main_Page but is it enough? Like roadmap link in there doesn't reflect all of the plan (WP8 & OpenGLES2)

for documentation, yes Corona SDK is better documented, and Gideros could learn from that. Like plugin development documentation which is almost non-existent, better to read official plugin source code for now. Documenting is also a time-consuming effort, and i am sure some devs dont like to write it (including me

). However, documentation is best source for newcomer to learn things. Currently we have the ultimate guide (draft status for too long) that is better to be an online documentation than book IMO.

from last year, we have a handful of people in community here that willing to help Gideros become a better place, it just need coordinated effort from community and officially approved persons from community to handle the task (like frequent forum members @ar2rsawseen @moopf @mells @ozapps ) The task like better forum, better documentation, etc could be handled by community given chance

just my 2 cent

twisttap · January 2013

I totally agree with @Nascode here. A lot of people in the forum put enormous effort for a better community and I am sure if asked a lot of other "silent" members can support this kind of tasks.

Mells · January 2013

@Nascode
I believe that the best investment would be to have one person (or several, each specialist in one area) dedicated to those tasks (and compensated -> We can't ask too much to people who are already busy
Look at the top commenters : @ar2rsawseen and @techdojo. Most of the comments they have made here were to help people rather than asking for help.).

Currently it's hard to make too many requests because we know how hard the Gideros team is working, and we know that the questions on the forum are often answered by the community - and to be honest, there is a need for better communication.

Better channels, many questions to the team are not answered (but as I said, we all know how hard the team is working so...).
We feel bad to make feature requests, they feel bad because they can't answer all our questions if they want to keep focused on making Gideros even better.

Official or not?
We need 1 official voice. No more guesses on what's currently in the works, track every comment that @atilim made to get hints about the roadmap or "how to do it".
I even thought that it was already you @ar2rsawseen (link) because you try to answer questions that are asked to the team.
That's very nice, but you can only guess from the "official" comments spread on the forum. (Which means those are only guesses + it takes a lot of your time reading every single discussion here ;/ ).

If that kind of support is not coming directly from the team (who again is already focused on making Gideros always better) it has to be someone else.

We - devs using Gideros - often don't know what Gideros is capable of
For example I have been asking for [test files] with each release.
I even provided a template for that.

(...) rather than figure out from the best friend (Google) or other sites on how to use certain features and then try to apply them, releasing sample code that you might have when you tested the features would be a nice touch.

How am I supposed to know what's new, what can I achieve with that, how to implement if we can't see a working example? We are all learners from experience here (try, fail, try fail, mimic, try, success).

That's why I was happy to provide an example for the Mesh API but most of the time I have no idea of what's new in each release. I put a "Love" to show my appreciation, but I have no clue on how to take advantange of new features.

If you "educate" us on how to take advantage of Gideros, we will be able to spread the word. But if I send a dev here ("hey take a look at Gideros!"), he asks me how to do X and I can't find the answer after searching everywhere, then there is a big problem.

Next steps
In a better world, the team would be able to focus on its strengths, and all questions on the forums would be answered by a knowledgeable member compensated for the time he spends helping others here.
This is just a matter of investing in that structure and there is no better time than "now".

( @ar2rsawseen, @techdojo or @OZApps would fit very well in my opinion).

keszegh · January 2013

@keszegh on the other thread there was a discussion about this:
http://www.giderosmobile.com/forum/discussion/comment/18016#Comment_18016

Basically:

In a couple of weeks, I'll start moving from OpenGL ES 1.1 to OpenGL ES 2.0. And while moving, I'll also implement render to texture.
...
I'll start implementing in a couple of weeks but implementation will take longer.

thanks for quoting this. i've seen this, but it only gives the information that it is '(2+x) times a couple of weeks'. it is so vague for me that i cannot even guess how many months does this mean (i don't know x and don't know 'a couple'), that's why i asked for anything a bit more specific. e.g. some upper bound.

on the other hand on more global scale i agree with the others that if there are resources then it is a good idea to have a paid problem-solver and communicator for the team who can shortcut such discussions on the forum by giving the best answer there is (even if it is: the team doesn't have any guess now). and also by making the available info on the forum even more accessible. for example how to use new features is something i'm wondering about too sometimes.

techdojo · January 2013

@Mells - Thanks for the vote of confidence, personally I try and help out as it help's my learning of new skills, but time spent here is time I can't spend somewhere else and so from time to time I have to allow the forum to take a backseat so I can prioritise other duties (like my day job and making @Scouser's coffee

- and no they're not the same thing!). I do get a lot of satisfaction from helping out and I like the feeling of community we have here. I would go so far as to say if you look at the top twenty list of posters (probably more), we all know each other pretty well by now - well enough to offer support and encouragement, share a joke and help each other out - not bad for twenty plus strangers scattered all over the world.

If the Gideros team were to appoint and retain a full time forum moderator (not a bad idea by the way) my vote would be for one of the current full time indies who lurk around here (you know who you are

)

I understand peoples needs and want's and always trying to push the envelope, however I've said in the past (and no doubt will say in the future), you can't rely on a roadmap or promised features when designing a game / product. When the mesh api was released it was an unexpected gift that really opened up what was possible - not every game type or product can easily or effectively be done with Gideros but lot's can - and there's an AWFUL lot of room in that space for innovation.

Granted exposing OpenGL and or the Gideros display list to plugin's would solve most of these issues - maybe that's what will happen eventually, until then though - I think the current feature set is more than enough for most peoples needs.

Another $0.02

Scouser · January 2013

@techdojo: I think you will find @ar2rsawseen is as near as nakes no difference a full time forum moderator (although not on the payroll).

techdojo · January 2013

Well if it was anything to do with me (which it's not) @ar2rsawseen would be first in the queue for an external position with the Gideros team

gorkem · January 2013

@mells Arturs is already a forum moderator. I would hesitate for less than a millisecond to add Jon and Jayant to this list, if they request

(However I believe that a forum moderation is not the answer to your questions or points you raised).

Btw, does anyone think that (unanswered questions)/(total questions) fraction on this forum is high?

Mells · January 2013

@gorkem
Yes, my key point was "compensated"

Arturs is helping so much here I almost want to tell him "please take some rest" sometimes

Btw, does anyone think that (unanswered questions)/(total questions) fraction on this forum is high?

I think that the lack of guidelines and "official" channel make it difficult to track the answers provided by the team.
However, I believe that the team is doing its best to answer there is no doubt about it.

With a better organization, we could get more answers with the same amount of efforts (or less) from the team.
But there is no doubt that the community is doing an amazing job, I'm very happy that I discovered Gideros in the past.
Ask a question -> You get an answer very fast, from people who know what they are talking about. This is amazing.

OZApps · January 2013

@mells Arturs is already a forum moderator. I would hesitate for less than a millisecond to add Jon and Jayant to this list, if they request

Thanks for that Gorkem, but I believe @Ar2rsawseen is doing a wonderful job and can continue to do so, the community is here and would continue to support him in that.

Btw, does anyone think that (unanswered questions)/(total questions) fraction on this forum is high?

While I cannot speak for everyone, I think that most of the questions get answered and due to the fragmented threads, i.e. people asking the same question on various threads so it might seem like unanswered and some other feature requests also mix up with the unanswered questions.

This could be easily avoided with a FAQ and open threads or sections (some of these are already there)

techdojo · January 2013

@Gorkem - thanks for the vote of confidence, to be honest I don't know what difference being an official moderator would make (apart from the power to delete @Scouser's posts and push him out of the top twenty and make @hgvyas123 even more jealous

), I still like to be able to help out, if we get a lot of spammers and Arturs or you need help keeping them in check then maybe - unless there's a special "shiny" badge of course, got to love the "shiny" badges.

As for the question ratio - I do think we have a slight issue with fragmented threads and some going a little way off topic :-\" but for me that's part of the charm of the place (and it forces you to read all the posts), maybe if there was a way to improve the search facility or have detailed FAQ section or a beginners section, maybe bring the Ultimate Guide within the actual forum that might help.

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