Running Gideros Player in browser

ar2rsawseen · June 2012

Hello,
question, would it be possible to run Gideros Player inside the browser on the website, like using somesort of plugin.
I just figured if it is possible to run virtual machine inside browsers:
http://blog.chipx86.com/2012/03/13/wsx-virtual-machines-in-your-browser/
http://stackvm.com/

Why not Gideros player. That would be awesome for feedback polish loop.

Since I don't know what's behind Gideros Player, just wanted to ask if it's possible and how hard it would be to pull something like this? Create a plugins for browser (like flash or something similar) and run your apps there.

phongtt · June 2012

Great idea!

techdojo · June 2012

These day's everyone seems to be talking about HTML5, I'm sure it shouldn't be too hard to create either a canvas or WebGL library that replicated the basic Gideros display hierarchy and then coded some kind of Lua to Javascript translation (or even port Lua to Javascript).

However as the roadmap is already 1000 miles long I suspect that this might be towards the end

ar2rsawseen · June 2012

Well, I do not expect atilim to waste his time on something like that.
Let just gorkem do that!

I'm kidding
But I could offer my help, if there is anything I can do to help this process.

evs · June 2012

Or Gideros Player as a Native Client application as it's written in C++

https://developers.google.com/native-client/devguide/tutorial

cheers

evs

gorkem · June 2012

Well, I do not expect atilim to waste his time on something like that.
Let just gorkem do that! I'm kidding
But I could offer my help, if there is anything I can do to help this process.

Port Gideros Player to NaCl + add command line capabilities to IDE + do some PHP scripting + scratch some hair = Gideros Studio on web ;-)

We have to wait for Atilim then ;-)

ar2rsawseen · June 2012

Wow I even understood something from that text

Ok porting player to native client,
add command line capabilities to control player?
PHP scripting? don't know what server side's got to do with that

But the main idea, was not to port player to web as it is, but to allow others run apps created using Gideros in the web browser. It would be like player with predefined app to run, or option to load app from lua code/bytecode.

Just for clarification

Which would be cool not only for testing, but also for running promos, like try before buy, etc

phongtt · June 2012

Yeah, running demo directly from the web

My previous company does such an idea for J2ME games.

gorkem · June 2012

But the main idea, was not to port player to web as it is, but to allow others run apps created using Gideros in the web browser. It would be like player with predefined app to run, or option to load app from lua code/bytecode.

Depending on the server side code, it must be possible to upload gproj file and run it on NaCl client. Of course, the other method should be doable, e.g (demoing one application). PHP scripting is for uploading the content, reading the gproj file, feeding it to command line IDE, so authentication is flawless. Not sure whether PHP is _strictly_ required in fact.

techdojo · June 2012

Well as it already exports to Java for the Android port, wouldn't it be easier to just be able to make app run using the standard Java plugin?

gorkem · June 2012

@techdojo How could it be possible to handle the Android specific API calls?

gorkem · June 2012

Nvmd - It's worth trying out.

techdojo · June 2012

Dunno, I suppose they'd have to be emulated - to be honest I wouldn't really be that interested in a browser player, either I'd just ship the source and allow the third party to compile it in the free version, or I'd send them an apk or use testflight.

Although... If Gideros could be used to create web apps either by translating to JS or via some kind of server plugin (like HaXe and the Neko VM) then I'd be more interested

Wasn't there some kind of talk a while ago about using Gideros to make standalone native Windows and or OSX apps, is that still in the pipeline?

gorkem · June 2012

Yes, it's indeed in the pipeline, getting closer.

ar2rsawseen · June 2012

Well, just for clarification, here's my story

The biggest problem right now is that I want designers to be able to see graphics used in app and test app itself. And yes, right now I simply send the code and designers tries it on it's Gideros Studio, but problem is, that Gideros studio is constantly updating, and designers need to update Studio to make new app run.
And since we are working on apps as side projects, aside from our day work, we constantly changing computers, once it's an office PC, then it's home PC, than it's a laptop. You work when you have time. Keeping latest Gideros Studio on all of them is really tiresome.
Not even talking about getting feedback from friends and family, I can't make them install Gideros Studio.

You know like it is, if you can't make the testing comfortable, no one will ever try it and give feedback.

Another aspect is security, sending plain source code, etc.

So standalone Windows/Mac OSs apps would also solve this problem. You simply install application and it runs.
But running inside the browser could be even better, because you simple share URL, where app will run, and each time there will be the newest copy.

Well just to clarify things, I don't say that everyone needs it, and that it should be implemented.
I just wanted to know how difficult it is, and if I can give any help to make it come true. Because as I see, right now all that I could do is to implement Lua interpreter in Javascript to render everything in canvas (Hmm, maybe not such a bad idea).

What do others think?

Magnusviri · June 2012

If I understand your issue it is that your artists can't update their images to try them out easily. I heard a solution at the 2010 WWDC is to put all art assets (and a text file with sizes and any other var that you want the artist to modify) on a webserver that the artist has control over and just download them. Check out my downloader to see how to download assets into your documents directory.

http://blog.magnusviri.com/gideros-downloader.html

ar2rsawseen · June 2012

No no, artist does not know anything about coding, they don't even need to see the code. They just need to be able to get latest app to try it out easily.
I'm the one changing the graphics.

I've already considered your solution, thanks

, but that won't solve the problem, that if I use some feature of newest Gideros studio, they could not run it on older ones.
That's why standalone app representation would be great.

techdojo · June 2012

I don't see an easy way out of this issue, other than to use (for the artists) something like testflight or ship them an apk with a build that downloads all the assets everytime it runs from a remote server (like dropbox).

That way whenever a new version comes out (or you add more features to your app) just rebuild the project and ship.

I considered this as a potential solution for working with a friend in Canada who doesn't know one end of code from the other and basically putting all the gameplay controls into the (tiled) map file.

I think @Magnusviri tweaked the player so that he could edit code on Dropbox and have the player actually rerun it without having to use the IDE - that might also be a solution.

ar2rsawseen · June 2012

Oh, sorry didn't mention. Artists does not always have proper devices with them.
We have a pool of devices that we share, and they are usually taken up by developers.

But it's even maybe not artists I'm concerned about, but as getting more feedback.
Right now I've got feedback from more than 50 people. (We actually took couple of devices to primary school to give the kids to try out game mechanics, physics, etc).

But the goal is even greater. In each level there are 3 buttons, like, don't like, don't know, which send feedback right to the server, where I can then analyze which levels players like the most, and which should be dropped off or improved.

(Yes, I take app development pretty seriously

)

With the web based app, it would be possible to take this to the whole new level and reach much broader audience.

techdojo · June 2012

Interesting concept, that is pretty serious

The way I see it you've got two choices,

1. Take the current iPhone / iPad player source and then port it yourself to C/C++ and then compile it into either a NaCl app or some kind of ActiveX style plugin, I've never looked at the source so I don't know how much access you get to the display hierarchy (I suspect very little), not an easy job.

2. Use something like Moai / Love2D (or SDL + Lua) + your own interpretation of the display hierarchy and create a standalone exe with your code wrapped inside, that way you can distribute an .exe via the web and also create a standalone product as well.

Actually - there might be a market for option 2, if you decided to partner with Gideros and made it an official thing ????

ar2rsawseen · June 2012

He he.
Actually opensourcing Gideros player might be pretty fun

It would allow others create customized players, like for example, with preloaded app, or with multiple apps, or even porting it to NaCl and run in a browser.

ar2rsawseen · June 2012

Hmm, found that Unity3d provides a webplayer, that basically uses directX on Windows and OpenGL on OSX. Implementation is a little above my head.
But the most interesting part is that they basically open a new market for developers. Developers can submit their games to game portals (similar to what flash devs are doing all this time). Probably not a lot of money can be gathered there, but it should be a great way to popularize your app.

Yes, yes I'm going to sit here and whine, until @atilim will put this feature on the roadmap

Just like @techdojo signature says (blame him

)

MikeHart · June 2012

The question is when do you needs this? Even if they do put this on the roadmap, i doubt it would appear in 2012. Nor 2013. GM is already way behind their estimated schedule. I think you won't even see support for desktop in 2012.

If need it badly, then I would look at tools that support Html5 or desktop already.

techdojo · June 2012

The thing with Unity is that is was originally designed to be a web player, it was initially a hardware accelerated version of flash, it's morphed to become a generic engine / player with a dev team (and price tag) to match. Whilst one day Gideros might be able to compete with the likes of Unity, it's a long way off yet (although it seems' to be doing a good job against Corona

)

Ps. Don't blame me - blame Winnie!

atilim · June 2012

Porting to NaCl is possible because it already supports C/C++, OpenGL and it's possible to build OpenAL Soft for it. These are the main requirements to port Gideros to a new system with minimal effort. For our side, both desktop versions and NaCl have almost same priority.

Currently we're only adding new features to Gideros but we also have plans and dreams about Gideros that can really make a difference (in about 1-2 years).

I think you won't even see support for desktop in 2012

challenge accepted!

techdojo · June 2012

Wooo hoo - go @Atilim go!
I'll bet you a beer that you can't get "render to texture" and "clipping support" in before the end of the year either!

)

phongtt · June 2012

Wooo hoo - go @Atilim go!
I'll bet you a beer that you can't get "render to texture" and "clipping support" in before the end of the year either!
)

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