3D Animation

hgy29 · November 2019

I have been working on amiated 3D models for Gideros, and I am please to say that IT WORKS!
I used fbxconv tool from libgdx to convert my fbx models into json, then made a loader in lua to parse that json file, create meshes and run the animation thanks to a dedicated shader.

The models are from Kenney character pack: https://kenney.itch.io/kenney-character-assets

MoKaLux · November 2019

I have the same question again: how hard will it be for a newbie?

hgy29 · November 2019

I hope I'll manage to pack up all my code in an easy to use lua lib for Gideros

PaulH · November 2019

That's awesome! I can't wait to try that out! I haven't used FBX models before, but it seems I can export my existing animated models from Blender to FBX. Nice work!

hgy29 · November 2019

Now working on WebGL2, and soon as a Gideros example.
http://hieroglyphe.net/gideros/People/

PaulH · November 2019

I love it! That would be hugely helpful. I've been experimenting with animating fish models by splitting a fish into segments, making each the child of the piece closer to the head, so I can rotate each relative to the rest. It works, but it would be less work and look much better if I could use the articulated fish models I have with armatures and animations. Thanks for working on animated models!

oleg · November 2019

PaulH said:
I love it! That would be hugely helpful. I've been experimenting with animating fish models by splitting a fish into segments, making each the child of the piece closer to the head, so I can rotate each relative to the rest. It works, but it would be less work and look much better if I could use the articulated fish models I have with armatures and animations. Thanks for working on animated models!

Why don't you use Unity for 3d ??

PaulH · November 2019

I've tried it. For my purposes, way too much of the system is unique to Unity with a large learning curve beyond general programming skills. It has a lot of built-in features that would save someone a lot of work if they're writing a typical FPS, and it's plenty powerful for other types of games once you know how their components work together, but coming into it with 30 years of programming experience in other environments I found it very frustrating. I was able to drop in existing models, make a landscape, move a model through it, all fairly quickly. But that was using pre-built modules made for other purposes, and figuring out how to modify things to meet my purposes was not straightforward. All the stuff that's ready made for convenience was far more of an inconvenience in my case. Tons of tutorials covered standard examples, seemingly mostly for new programmers, but that actually made it harder to find specific answers I was looking for. I knew I'd learn my way around their system in time, but most of that time spent learning Unity wouldn't carry over to any other system.

I'm also not a fan of their business practices. To even evaluate Unity for a project in which you plan to eventually sell the app, you need to buy a license. I did, never spotting the notice that I was committing to paying for it for a full year. When I attempted to cancel after a little more than a month, I was told I couldn't cancel after 30 days. I explained that I was only looking to evaluate it for a project I planned to start developing about 6 months later, would never have agreed to their year commitment if I'd seen it, and asked if I couldn't cancel, if I could at least suspend my plan for a few months and resume paying for it when I'd have time to work with it. No, they wouldn't cancel or suspend it. So I paid several hundred dollars for it, and let them know how frustrated I was with them. I was already leaning away from using Unity, but at that point I knew I'd never use it for anything. If one of my customers ever asks for a refund, for any reason, I grant it. I don't want to spend years developing new skills that are only useful with one system, and committing to pay them for years, when they don't treat their customers as well as I treat my own.

I decided I'd rather do the next game in 2D with Gideros. When I learned how much one could do in 3D with Gideros, I decided to do it in 3D after all. It may not have all the 3D features of Unity, but it can do what I need it to do quite nicely, and my progress has been much, much faster in Gideros than anything I could have done in Unity.

I'd rather my time and money go towards Gideros. In fact I'm going to go make another donation right now.

Paul

oleg · November 2019

PaulH said:
I've tried it. For my purposes, way too much of the system is unique to Unity with a large learning curve beyond general programming skills. It has a lot of built-in features that would save someone a lot of work if they're writing a typical FPS, and it's plenty powerful for other types of games once you know how their components work together, but coming into it with 30 years of programming experience in other environments I found it very frustrating. I was able to drop in existing models, make a landscape, move a model through it, all fairly quickly. But that was using pre-built modules made for other purposes, and figuring out how to modify things to meet my purposes was not straightforward. All the stuff that's ready made for convenience was far more of an inconvenience in my case. Tons of tutorials covered standard examples, seemingly mostly for new programmers, but that actually made it harder to find specific answers I was looking for. I knew I'd learn my way around their system in time, but most of that time spent learning Unity wouldn't carry over to any other system.

I'm also not a fan of their business practices. To even evaluate Unity for a project in which you plan to eventually sell the app, you need to buy a license. I did, never spotting the notice that I was committing to paying for it for a full year. When I attempted to cancel after a little more than a month, I was told I couldn't cancel after 30 days. I explained that I was only looking to evaluate it for a project I planned to start developing about 6 months later, would never have agreed to their year commitment if I'd seen it, and asked if I couldn't cancel, if I could at least suspend my plan for a few months and resume paying for it when I'd have time to work with it. No, they wouldn't cancel or suspend it. So I paid several hundred dollars for it, and let them know how frustrated I was with them. I was already leaning away from using Unity, but at that point I knew I'd never use it for anything. If one of my customers ever asks for a refund, for any reason, I grant it. I don't want to spend years developing new skills that are only useful with one system, and committing to pay them for years, when they don't treat their customers as well as I treat my own.

I decided I'd rather do the next game in 2D with Gideros. When I learned how much one could do in 3D with Gideros, I decided to do it in 3D after all. It may not have all the 3D features of Unity, but it can do what I need it to do quite nicely, and my progress has been much, much faster in Gideros than anything I could have done in Unity.

I'd rather my time and money go towards Gideros. In fact I'm going to go make another donation right now.

Paul

I also do not like to use ready-made solutions because I cannot change them, which is why when I studied Unity3d I did not use third-party modules and libraries, in Unity3d as well as in Gideros the whole game can be written in a text editor without using additional modules. I know I'm in the minority here, but I think it's better for Gideros to be a specialized engine for 2d and not waste time on 3d.

Apollo14 · November 2019

oleg said:
I also do not like to use ready-made solutions because I cannot change them, which is why when I studied Unity3d I did not use third-party modules and libraries, in Unity3d as well as in Gideros the whole game can be written in a text editor without using additional modules. I know I'm in the minority here, but I think it's better for Gideros to be a specialized engine for 2d and not waste time on 3d.

I guess game engines are like women. You just like or dislike a woman, that's it. It's not always about logic. She may be very imperfect, but you still like her. Another woman may be much more 'perfect', but you don't like her. And what's good for one person, may be horrible for another.

oleg · November 2019

Apollo14 said:

oleg said:
I also do not like to use ready-made solutions because I cannot change them, which is why when I studied Unity3d I did not use third-party modules and libraries, in Unity3d as well as in Gideros the whole game can be written in a text editor without using additional modules. I know I'm in the minority here, but I think it's better for Gideros to be a specialized engine for 2d and not waste time on 3d.
I guess game engines are like women. You just like or dislike a woman, that's it. It's not always about logic. She may be very imperfect, but you still like her. Another woman may be much more 'perfect', but you don't like her. And what's good for one person, may be horrible for another.

I like all women who have a healthy appearance and this is the natural essence of all men, everything else is the influence of culture

keszegh · November 2019

gideros looks very healthy to me...

oleg · November 2019

keszegh said:
gideros looks very healthy to me...

Nobody says gideros is bad, I'm just saying that Unity is like a cross screwdriver and gideros is like a flat screwdriver. Each tool has its own purpose ..

keszegh · November 2019

oleg said:

keszegh said:
gideros looks very healthy to me...
Nobody says gideros is bad, I'm just saying that Unity is like a cross screwdriver and gideros is like a flat screwdriver. Each tool has its own purpose ..

i know.

SinisterSoft · November 2019

@oleg The additions for 3D will also be very useful for 2D, for example, I think Stencil was added for 3D ( @hgy29 correct me if I'm wrong), but it's invaluable for the dynamic angled split-screen (for 2 player games) in 2D.

oleg · November 2019

SinisterSoft said:
@oleg The additions for 3D will also be very useful for 2D, for example, I think Stencil was added for 3D ( @hgy29 correct me if I'm wrong), but it's invaluable for the dynamic angled split-screen (for 2 player games) in 2D.

Here is the marketing question: -or gideros -the best 2d engine, or Gideros lagging 3d engine ..

In Ukraine there is such a wonderful company as '3d Coat' - it is 3d editor, but they decided to focus on creating 2d sprites from 3d models - because 2d games are now being targeted by most indie developers ..

SinisterSoft · November 2019

Being able to use 3D sprites for 2D would be a nice bonus imho.

antix · November 2019

Yes.. I think being able to generate 2D sprites on the fly using 3D models would be beneficial too

oleg · November 2019

SinisterSoft said:
Being able to use 3D sprites for 2D would be a nice bonus imho.

I'm not against the bonuses, I just think it takes a lot of money and a great team to keep the 3D graphics up-to-date.

PaulH · December 2019

Maybe, but less so for a mobile platform, at least currently. Most mobile 3D games I've played don't use the most cutting edge 3D features, and many could be developed with the 3D support that's currently in Gideros.

The biggest reason why I'd rather use Gideros for 3D games even if Giders never added animated models or any other new 3D feature: I'm writing code that loads a 3D model (exported from Blender) and lets me position it and scale it, and render it efficiently within a scene containing many other models. It's efficient because it uses OpenGL under the hood, and it's straightforward because it's a relatively thin layer. Because there isn't a huge amount of code between what I write and OpenGL, any 3D programming skills or techniques I already have can be applied. And because OpenGL does the heavy lifting (rendering the 3D world, using the GPU) it's efficient and fast. So I can do everything I need to do, and expect it to run even on older or low-end devices.

The app I end up with will be on the stores for years, and hopefully be a source of income for years. And I'll keep donating as long as Gideros is a part of what I use to make the app viable. But suppose Gideros stops being supported. Since it's open source, I could continue to maintain it myself enough to keep my apps up to date with the required APIs for the app stores. That would be a shame, and take a lot of my time, but my apps wouldn't be dead in the water. Or I could switch to a different engine that doesn't put a bunch of extra code between me and the underlying 3D engine (OpenGL.)
The thinner the layer of code between the 3D engine and my code, the less I'd have to rewrite if I ever had to change game engines. Gideros is a fairly thin layer, and Unity is a very thick layer. Basically, my apps, and therefore my livelihood, aren't tied to the continued success and terms of any single company.

Suppose I went with Unity. The games I make would be dependent on many layers of code that only works with Unity. They might have extra graphical effects, and I could use their system for input, sound etc, but the more I use them, the more I'm tied to them. If they increased their licensing fees, I'd have no choice but to pay. And if Unity shut down (unlikely, given their position in the market) my apps I'd built with their libraries could no longer be updated. I'd have to rewrite them almost from scratch.

I've already been through something like that once. I used a 3D engine for Windows games that was a layer over DirectX. I published 2 games using that engine, and then the company shut down, making it impossible to continue to support those games. Later I made sprites from the models from the first one, and used those to make a 2D mobile version of that game with Gideros, and the resulting app earned far more than it ever did as a 3D Windows game. It was only recently that I decided to do the same with the other and make another 2D game, using sprites generated from existing 3D models, when I realized how easy it is to use the 3D models directly in Gideros.

Of course, the right tool depends on the user and the purpose. If someone new to game development planned a 3D maze running game or FPS, I might suggest they use Unity. I can say lots of great things about their technology. But for me, given my current skill set, existing 3D models, past success with Gideros, and appreciation for this community, the choice is simple. Gideros is easily the best tool for my 3D games.

If Gideros gets more 3D features, I'll use them, and be grateful to have them. But if Gideros focuses mostly on 2D games, I'll be satisfied with what's already possible.

One last thought: On Windows, or console games, the difference between the biggest hits and the indie games made by solo developers or small teams isn't the feature set of the engine they use, but of their other resources. A solo developer or small team will never be able to match the production value of a game created with a multi-million dollar budget, with separate teams for motion capture, sound effects, music, level design, etc, etc. If a couple of coders, even with the best engine money can buy, try to make a game look like something from a multi-billion dollar game development company, the result will look pathetic. On the other hand, a coder or two can make a really original and addictive game that looks like nothing else on the market, and earns good money. Put another way, if you're a solo developer or very small team, the feature set of the engine you use is not likely to be what determines whether your games will succeed. You need to figure out what you're capable of creating, and use the tools that let you get there as efficiently as possible. That doesn't necessarily mean using the tool with the most features, just the one that best enables you to create what you're envisioning.

For me, working solo, I'm increasingly convinced Gideros is the best engine I could choose for both 2D and 3D games. I appreciate the new features that make it easier to do what I want to do, but I'll never have the resources to fully leverage an engine with all of the cutting edge features.

Paul

oleg · December 2019

@PaulH Do you have games that are already profitable?

MoKaLux · December 2019

@oleg haven't you seen his website? He designed a couple of fishing games that are quite successful I believe.

oleg · December 2019

MoKaLux said:
@oleg haven't you seen his website? He designed a couple of fishing games that are quite successful I believe.

I have no doubt the games are great, i'm talking about profits.

PaulH · December 2019

Yes, I make my living from my apps. My most profitable games are Fly Fishing Simulator HD and Ice Fishing Derby.

oleg · December 2019

PaulH said:
Yes, I make my living from my apps. My most profitable games are Fly Fishing Simulator HD and Ice Fishing Derby.

Share a secret how do you monetize them and how do you advertise them?

PaulH · December 2019

The short version is that I accumulated a mailing list of people who registered the free demo versions of my Windows games over the years, and when I released similar mobile games, I used those lists to help the games get some downloads right away. Getting good reviews and ratings while they were listed in the "new releases" help them grow quite a bit in the first month. That allowed them to keep growing in the rankings of search results for "fly fishing" and "ice fishing", terms likely to be searched by the people most likely to like those games. Going after a niche market that people search for has been a huge help. I included limited but playable content for free, and sell more content (locations and in-game equipment) with in-app purchases. I've had minimal success monetizing with ads, and plan to only use ads to cross-promote my own apps in the future.

Now the app stores don't give new releases any significant free exposure. There's no "new releases" section where all new games in a category are listed, where the good ones can get discovered and kick-start long term organic growth. Instead they expect publishers to pay to promote their games. For my last new release Google quoted me USD 14,000 to run a "test" marketing program that could, maybe, possibly get the game enough exposure that organic growth could start from there.

In that environment, I have no idea what the organic, inexpensive path to success might be, if there is one anymore. It may be a matter of working with social media influencers, rather than expecting the app store itself to help your app get discovered. For me I'm hoping cross promoting my new games from my established ones can get them growing.

Still, looking for a niche to target, something that people search for, where the search results aren't already crowded with high-quality games, is probably a good strategy for an indie developer.

My much longer comments on the subject are here: http://forum.giderosmobile.com/discussion/comment/58968/#Comment_58968

oleg · December 2019

@PaulH Google still has a "new" section but it's hard to get there without advertising.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/new

Well, 14000$ is big money for me, so I don't see the point in 3D for indie right now ..

PaulH · December 2019

The only "new release" listings I've seen lately were lists of very few new or recently updated apps hand picked by app store editors. That may be different in different regional versions of the stores, though.

$14,000 is far more than I'd spend with so little certainty of success. Their pitch sounded more like big stakes gambling than investing. But the challenge of promoting a game is the same whether the game is 2D or 3D. The $14k "marketing test" offer was for a 2D word puzzle game.

I'd be doing my new game in 2D if I didn't already have almost all the 3D models I'd need, or if I had to learn another unique game engine. But I have the models, and Gideros lets me work with them easily.

oleg · December 2019

PaulH said:
The only "new release" listings I've seen lately were lists of very few new or recently updated apps hand picked by app store editors. That may be different in different regional versions of the stores, though.

AppBrain reports that I see my game appearing in the New Games section in all countries.
https://developers.appbrain.com
So this section is available in all countries

oleg · December 2019

PaulH said:

$14,000 is far more than I'd spend with so little certainty of success. Their pitch sounded more like big stakes gambling than investing. But the challenge of promoting a game is the same whether the game is 2D or 3D. The $14k "marketing test" offer was for a 2D word puzzle game.

I'd be doing my new game in 2D if I didn't already have almost all the 3D models I'd need, or if I had to learn another unique game engine. But I have the models, and Gideros lets me work with them easily.

These funds will not pay off...

PaulH · December 2019

I agree. I didn't accept the offer to promote the game for $14k. That's way too expensive, way too risky.

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